This according to the July audience numbers under the new audience measurement system.

Numbers like these contradict claims that are sometimes made on this blog, which is usually along the lines of ‘no-one watches the CBC anymore.’

These most recent numbers repudiate that claim.

Other highlights from the new book:

• the morning shows in Toronto and Calgary are still the most popular on the dial;
• the morning show in Vancouver is the second most popular;
• Edmonton captured it’s highest afternoon share all year in July;
• Calgary’s noon and afternoon audience continued to grow.

Note Nielsen’s definition of reach is: “The cumulative percentage or total of a population that has been counted as viewers at least once during a specified interval.”

Here is the information provided to me by the CBC’s radio music department.

Hi Tod, Since 2005, we have engaged such notable composers as:

Tanya Tagaq, Veda Hille, R.Murray Schafer, Chan Ka Nin, Bernard Falaise, Owen Pallett, Phil Dwyer, Sarah Slean, Jonathan Goldsmith, Dinuk Wijeratne, Jesse Zubot, Martin Tielli, Odario Williams, Kyrie Kristmanson, Gavin Bryars, Waboowe Whitebird, Taqralik Partridge, Gary Kulesha, Kati Agocs, Robert M. Lepage, John Southworth, Glenn Buhr.

Commissions have supported CBC Radio 2 specials including Wagner’s Ring Cycle, Shostakovich Centenary, Glenn Gould 75th, Stolen Children: Truth and Reconciliation.

Commissions are very broad in their activity, ranging from orchestral commissions to jazz, and from world to and pop.

At a glance for fiscal 07/08:
Total # of contracts: 57
23 classical genre, 34 non-classical genre

Total # of minutes of music contracted: 416

The 32-page report is worded gently, as the Committee acknowledges that the CBC has journalistic, creative, and programming independence. In other words, the government can’t tell the CBC what to do, only “suggest” it.

The report contains 9 recommendation/conclusions:”The Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage…”

• reaffirms its recommendation that the Government of Canada commit to stable, multi-year funding for CBC/Radio-Canada, indexed to the cost of living. Funding should be for a period of not less than seven years and be established by means of a proposed memorandum of understanding.
• recognizes that under the Broadcasting Act, 1991, CBC/Radio-Canada enjoys journalistic, creative, and programming independence.
• is encouraged that CBC/Radio-Canada has reaffirmed its commitment that classical music will continue to have a central place in CBC Radio 2 programming.
• is encouraged that CBC/Radio-Canada has reaffirmed the development of other genres of music in order to reflect the diversity of Canada.
• concludes that CBC/Radio Canada should explore creative ways to acquire a third over-the-air CBC/Radio-Canada network to allow greater opportunities to better focus the broadcast of all genres of Canadian music, including classical, jazz, folk, world, and roots music.
• is convinced that CBC/Radio-Canada’s stated commitment to the continuation of classical music as a central part of CBC radio programming is intricately linked with the continuation of the CBC Radio Orchestra as a vehicle for emerging Canadian talent.
• recognizes with appreciation the long and illustrious history of the CBC Radio Orchestra and its role in the promotion of Canadian classical music and the development of Canadian composers, musicians and conductors. The Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage further recognizes the specific contribution of the CBC Radio Orchestra to the cultural life of the Lower Mainland of British Columbia where it has been based.
• notes the particular role of a radio orchestra and, while not directing any specific outcome or action, concludes that the board of directors of CBC/Radio-Canada and CBC/Radio-Canada management should review the decision to disband the CBC Radio Orchestra.
• is convinced that meaningful consultation with Canadians, musicians, music organizations, and communities representing various musical genres would improve CBC’s decision making with regard to changes in radio programming.
• concludes that the cancellation of the young composers and young performers competitions has negatively impacted the ability of young emerging Canadian classical musicians and composers from showcasing their music to the public.

Tom Allen, Peter Togni and Jurgen Gothe will be returning to the network, to be joined by Julie Nesrallah, Molly Johnson and Rich Terfry.

• Monday to Friday from 6 to 10 a.m., Tom Allen will host CBC Radio 2’s new morning show, which will serve as the gateway to the new Radio 2 schedule and will feature a wide range of music.
• At 10 a.m., mezzo-soprano Julie Nesrallah will take the helm of the network’s new daytime classical show, airing until 3 p.m.
• Then at 3 p.m., Rich Terfry, better known as Buck 65, will host Radio 2’s new drive-time songwriter show until 6 p.m.
• On the weekends, Molly Johnson will host the new morning show airing Saturdays from 6 to 10 a.m. and Sundays from 6 to 8 a.m.
• Completing the weekend schedule, Peter Togni will be Choral Concert’s new host beginning in September, and Jurgen Gothe will host a new weekly show on Sundays from 5 to 6 p.m.

In it, Chris talks about the challenges he’s facing in the new job, particularly the hurdle of the format change of Radio 2.

Chris Boyce started out with Definitely Not the Opera, the Saturday afternoon pop culture show on CBC Radio One. He then had an idea to create The Content Factory [disclosure: I work in the Content Factory group], a group of writers and producers who generate cross-format content for all of the CBC. This caught the attention of CBC headquarters, and Chris was then given the job of manager of program development for the CBC.

Broadcaster.com featured an interview with Richard Stursberg, Vice-President of English Services at the CBC, this week. Really nothing all that new — basically the same arguments and explanations as we’ve heard, but, for the record, a brief summary of the interview is after the jump, below.

Plans For Radio 2

We are attempting to broaden the musical mix available on Radio 2. Everyone likes the intelligence & the quality of the station, but the content will be broadened outside of classical music.

In this country every year 30,000 songs are released commercially; only 240 get airplay. The changes at Radio 2 are meant to showcase the full musical spectrum in order to give more Canadian artists a chance.

The whole range of music that is made in Canada will be made available; the test will be “is it great”.

Emerging Artists & Radio 2’s New Format

The CRTC just announced recent policy on emerging artists. We don’t have any place for emerging artists right now. When you go back to the 60’s, and people who have become iconic like Mitchell or Cohen, CBC was fundamental in their founding. We want to go back to that.

Overall, we want Radio 2 to provide an authoritative intellectual setting for the kind of music people want to hear.

Plans For Radio 1

Radio 1 is in good shape. Best share ever in the last books. Morning shows and drive-home shows are #1 in most markets, #2 and #3 in others. The strategy is to focus on local character of morning and drive-home shows. Meet Canadians where they want to be met. No shift in direction such as Radio 2.

Our Vancouver station is doing particularly well, even with the AM format. We are not going to stick with AM for any stations in future. We made a deal with Global to get FM licenses in BC. We are going for coverage of Nanaimo across the Island, which we currently don’t have.

We are hoping to hear from the commission soon on these applications.

AM is a dying medium, the signal quality on FM is so much better. In parts of Vancouver right now you can’t even get the AM signal.

AM/FM – What’s Next – Digital Alternatives

CBC has an experimental license to do HD radio; that is an interesting medium to explore. 10-11% of all radio is done online right now, with demographics skewed by age. I think this will accelerate when people can get wi-fi in their cars. Ford is already experimenting with this; essentially you will have a computer in your car.

Radio 3

We are very pleased with the way Radio 3 has gone. It has become a model as online listening has become important. It is less expensive than doing it with towers. We are spending a lot of time in satellite radio with the involvement with Sirius.

CBC has got the greatest music library in the country and the greatest expertise in the country as well. CBC wants to meet people in whatever way, and whatever device, they are most comfortable with.

CBC Sports

CBC Sports has a strong heritage. Hockey Night in Canada is the oldest media franchise in the world. It was on the radio for 30 years before it started on TV in 1952.

We recently had curling on. We are still finishing up the curling contract this year. We have shifted emphasis in the sense that there is no football; that has gone to TSN. We have made a very big commitment to soccer. We were recently the broadcaster for the International Men’s Under 20 Championship in Canada, and we are the broadcaster of the Toronto FC. More kids play soccer than any other sport; big growth area.

Broadcasting Blue Jays, Raptors, and we remain committed to amateur sport. We will be broadcasting 2008 Olympics in Beijing.

What problems has Don Cherry caused?

Over the course of the last 2 years, there has been no criticism of Don Cherry’s remarks. Iconic figure of our country, lovely guy, wears his heart on his sleeve. Over the years he has been a great booster of CBC and a great part of Hockey Night in Canada.

Digital Specialty Channels

Landscape will change fundamentally over the next 2 years. Hearings have been going on in Ottawa as per what the role of HD channels will be, that will have a big impact. The transition off of Analog has been set to 2011. By then everyone needs a digital box who will receive cable.

When everyone has a digital box, then all channels are on the same footing. Channels that prosper in that environment will be those have had more of a following. That will be powerful in terms that they are responsive to the marketplace.

Environment won’t be determined by market share as per conventional television, but by demand for particular channels.

If you look at Canadian conventional television landscape, overwhelming majority of content gets made by conventional television channels. Specialty channels then buy that content and run the wheels off of it – conventional television will still be the content producers.

Television on Demand

Three years ago you couldn’t get television shows in a video store – now they are all over the place. Right now we have the #1 on demand show in Canada, which is The Tudors.

25% of revenue for feature film is in theatrical, 75% in DVD & television. The first window will be increasingly less important as time goes on. That will only apply to a certain kind of genre, like drama. This will not be true of hockey – more real time properties such as quiz shows, news, sports will not be subject to this model.

On-Demand & How it will Change Advertising

30 second spot is becoming a commodity. Agencies are now interested in engagement, want viewers that are engaged. How do you measure this – how long do they watch the show, do they go to the website, do they play the game associated with the show. CBC thinks very hard about the issue of engagement, and how to build the offer that underpins the show.

We are in a unique place in Canada, as we make our own shows and in the US they buy them, so the shows can be made to a certain offer and engagement level.

Cable Carriage Fees

Absolutely, conventional networks should be on the same footing as specialties, should qualify for a fee. Fee should be tied to programming commitments. When broadcasters come up for license renewals, fee needs to be tied to programming commitments, and Canadian content should be paramount.

I am lost by Rogers’ financial concerns; they have been jacking up basic cable rates for number of years. They have argued that the service is price elastic, if you put in more of a fee, people will drop off of network; clearly untrue. Make for a very small basic package which will collapse the price. To get cable you have to buy basic, we are forcing Canadians to buy US channels.

CanCon

Radio 1 very close to 100% CanCon, Radio 2 will be much more CanCon, a little tougher with Classical music; going to go to 60%. Kids programming in TV now 100% Canadian, prime time is 70-80% Canadian.

Multiculturalism

In order to serve audiences have to better reflect who they are, and the people that you employ are people from all of those different communities.

The best way of doing this is to go where the people go. Speak to people in their own terms.

Satellite Vs. Cable

I used to run a satellite television company. Satellite will have problems penetrating urban markets, as cable can compete with bundled services where satellite companies can’t do that. It is expensive to do high speed internet access by satellite.

In rural markets they will still be #1, but they are maxed out in terms of numbers of viewers they can get.

Future of Public Broadcasting In Canada – CBC in 5 Years

Future is good, right now where we are, this year in television, we took 7.8 share in primetime 2 plus, best we have done in many years, and CBC beat Global. Beat them with Canadian shows.

Radio services enjoying best share ever.

Website #1 News & Info website in country.

We are #2 in television sports

Newsworld is the strongest all news network in country.

We like where things are going, and want more properties and formats. We bought the Documentary channel, introduced Bold, and we are interested in expanding across all platforms, especially in internet area.

Personal Highlights & Memorable Moments

When I came to CBC just over 3 years ago, my first concern was entertainment shows. Television is entertainment medium, shows weren’t doing too well. What counted was Canadian shows had to have Canadian audiences; if nobody was watching that was a measure of failure.

Doing Little Mosque on the Prairie, we were looking at launching Sept. 2007, rushed for launch in Jan of 2007, put a lot of promotion and effort into it. I was in Venice on holiday when it launched. I was sitting there with Blackberry looking at the numbers as they came in. The Blackberry said “210,000”; decimal was misplaced and it was actually 2.1 million viewers.

You’ve gotta hand it to him. Znaimer knows where to place his advertising…

Hat tip to Pat Martel. Photo: Peter Rukavina (used under Creative Commons licence)

So last week, I sat down (via phone) with Chris Boyce, CBC Radio’s director of programming, and Mark Steinmetz, director of music, to get some more details and address some of the concerns raised.

The interview text is below and the audio of the interview is coming soon.

Please note: There are some crappy edits in the audio — all were from my end (coughing, taking a phone call, and editing out my mangling of questions and stumbling over words <grin>). At no time has Chris, Mark, or anyone at the CBC asked for anything to be taken out.

Maffin: There’s been lots of chat these days on the blog, and in the media, and inside the CBC around the changes to CBC Radio Two, specifically the reduction of classical music being played, the addition of a streaming classical music station online and closing the closing the CBC Radio orchestra. It’s been very contentious, and I’ve got a couple people with me from the CBC who will hopefully shed some light and maybe explain some of this. One is Mark Steinmetz. Hi Mark.

Steinmetz: Hi.

Maffin: Briefly, what do you do?

Steinmetz: I’m the Director of Radio Music.

Maffin: And what’s your background?

Steinmetz: I’ve been at CBC for over fifteen years. Was a producer, did disc shows, recorded concerts, recorded cd’s, and went to music school, and that’s it.

Maffin: Chris Boyce is the newly minted Director of Programming. Hi Chris.

Boyce: Hi Tod.

Maffin: You came through the Director of Program Development, and then you had some time at DNTO. Where have you been, briefly, at the CBC?

Boyce: You’re right. Before I got in to management, I was Executive Producer at DNTO and the Content Factory, producing a wide range of content for CBC Radio. And television. Most recently, I was Director of Program Development where I worked developing a wide range of programming, from current affairs, to cultural programming, to music. I just started officially a few weeks ago as Director of Programming.

Maffin: Just by way of disclosure, you used to be my boss when I worked at DNTO. I believe I still owe you five bucks.

Boyce: You were an exemplary employee.

Maffin: That’s so not true.

__________________________________________
THE OVERALL ENVIRONMENT

Maffin: Before we get to the topics at hand and the controversial aspects, I want to ask a couple of questions on the overall environment. Maybe Chris, you might be best to answer this. How has the way that we listen to radio changed in the last five to ten years? Are we listening more or less? Do we listen in different places than we used to?

Boyce: If you look at the overall radio environment in Canada, people are listening to slightly less over-the-air radio. Where it’s most predominant is in the under thirty-five demographic. Thirty-five plus people have lost about an hour of listening a week, still in the twenty hour a week range. The drop off is most noticed when you’re under thirty-five, and incredibly noticeable in the under eighteen demographic.

Maffin: It’s sort of an obvious answer, I suppose, but I guess those people are turning to podcasts and satellite radio. Where are we losing them to?

Boyce: That’s the million dollar question, Tod. I think it’s safe to say that people are finding any number of places, whether it be satellite radio or podcast. Everybody now seems to own an iPod and essentially programs their own music, so in the digital sphere, it’s not just other programmed radio services. It’s people essentially creating their own programming as the technology has enabled them to essentially replicate the experience of listening to a radio station but programming it themselves.

Maffin: I have to say, since podcasting came online a couple years ago, I listen to almost no radio live off the radio now. I subscribe to CBC podcast, NPR, ABC and stuff like that every day. It really changed my listening anyway.

Steinmetz: There’s another fact that we just found out. It’s between, I think, sixteen and twenty-five percent of listeners of traditional radio are actually listening off of their computers, so they’re not even listening to radios, like radio units. They’re listening through their computers. That’s across North America, so that’s interesting, as well.

__________________________________________
CHANGES TO CBC RADIO 2

Maffin: I want to get to that as well, when we talk about changes to the classical music, because I know that one of the things we’re going to be adding is an online radio station. But let’s start more widely with the changes to Radio Two overall. I was looking through the blog comments, and of course, we’ve had plenty. There was a fellow named Alan Shearn, of course, you never really who’s name it really is, so a person who calls himself Alan Shearn reminded people in there, there’s an old saying that says if it’s not broke, don’t fix it. CBC’s certainly changing. I don’t know whether we’re fixing, maybe we are. Does that mean Radio Two is broken?

Steinmetz: No. Radio Two, it’s a quality service. I think there are two things that we’ve realized over the past few years. One is that we’re not adhering to the overall mandate. That is that the Radio Two public space reflects the broad range of music making in this country. We don’t feel that we’re living up to our mandate, and the second reason is we described as a sustainable audience. We’ve got a relatively good audience, but fifty percent of the audience is over sixty-five. We appreciate that audience. We want to keep that audience, but the fact of the matter is the thirty-five to sixty year olds are not coming in behind them. Our audience, over the last twenty years, has grown twenty times faster than the Canadian population. Everyone thinks that the boomers are coming and they’re going to discover classical music, but the truth is that thirty-five to sixty group are not coming to our service. Over the last bunch of years, we’ve been asking ourselves why that is. And there’s many reasons for that, but those are the two reasons. We need a sustainable audience. We need to find an adult audience that will come to us and replenish us and keep us going in to the future.

Boyce: Tod, we have a great classical music service, but the reality of music in Canada today is there’s a whole list of genres of music that people listen to and that are made across Canada. Roots, world, folk, blues, jazz, contemporary music. There’s singer song writers, there’s a ton of incredible music being made in Canada today that just isn’t heard on Canadian airwaves. It’s our responsibility as Canada’s broadcaster to bring that music to Canadians wherever they live, across Canada. For us, that’s what this is about. It’s about bringing Canadian music to Canadians and it’s not really something that anyone else is doing in Canada right now.

Maffin: I wonder if we sometimes end up accidentally shooting ourselves in the foot though. Sometimes we’ll give examples of artists that would be played. I remember when Freestyle was about to launch here in Vancouver. Somebody, somewhere at the CBC mentioned, probably in passing, that among the many Canadian artists they’ll be playing we’ll see some lighter fare. There occasionally be Madonna. Of course the media reported, CBC Radio goes pop radio. I kind of fear we may have done the same thing by mentioning Celine Deon and Joni Mitchell as examples, so let’s set the record straight. When people tune in to the new CBC Radio Two in the fall, what will they hear? Will it be an easy listening station?

Steinmetz: No, it won’t be an easy listening station. It’ll be a station that brings quality music across genres to Canadians. We’ll not be focusing in on the top ten hits of this country, the commercial stations do so at presenting to Canadians. There are thousands of pieces of music across genres, including classical music, made in this country that are not heard. Quality music, across genres. We will be reflecting that music. You’re right about you mention one or two artists, and I think the two artists that were mentioned in passing long ago were Serena Ryder and Joni Michell, and all the sudden that’s what CBC Radio Two’s going to become. I don’t know where Celine Deon came from, but anyway. The fact of the matter is, will there be Joni Mitchell on the service? Yes, there will be some Joni Mitchell on the service, but it’s not going to be exclusively a service that is going to play music just like Joni Mitchell. I guess that’s the key. Whenever you bring up an artists name, then that’s what happens. Anyway, quality music across genres.

Boyce: The bottom line, Tod, is tens of thousands of cuts of music are made every year in Canada. A few hundred of them ever get heard with any regularity on commercial radio, so there is a really deep catalog of great Canadian music that nobody gets to hear. We’re going to put that on the radio.

Steinmetz: That’s right, and the number is often cited as thirty thousand and acknowledged that there are thousands that aren’t very good. And we will avoid those not very good ones, but there are thousands that are excellent and quality recordings that are heard nowhere else, and we will reflect those recordings.

Boyce: And we’re excited because it’s a radio service that doesn’t exist anywhere else in Canada right now.

Maffin: As an aside, I actually have a list of music I think is really bad. Can I just email that to you and maybe we can make some sort of arrangement?

Steinmetz: Sure.

Boyce: A “do not play” list.

Steinmetz: I get lots of those lists, Tod.

Maffin: It kind of raises in a way, I wonder how diligent we would have to be to ensure that we don’t compete in a way. There’s a commenter on the blog, named Dave, who wrote on April first. This is his comment, the new CBC Radio Two will be more like pop stations than it was before, and I think you’ve addressed that, but he goes on to say, it may not occupy exactly the same terrain as a pop station, but it certainly may appeal more to pop listeners, which I think might be true. Therefore, regardless of whether we attempt to compete with the pop stations, we kind of are in a way competing with them, so will we be paying close attention to make sure we don’t match those, or is that not really in our radar?

Boyce: We know what the service is that we want to make. We know what the music is that we think Canadians want to hear, that they aren’t hearing now. We’re going to put it on the air. If that’s something that’s appealing to people who are presently listening to another radio station, that’s great, but for us, this is about what it is to be a public broadcaster in Canada in the year two thousand and eight.

Maffin: To be fair, the numbers on Radio Two are not that great. I think, just over three percent of Canadians, who listen to the radio, tune in to Radio Two.

Steinmetz: That’s right.

Maffin: So how do we defend against charges that these changes are just an attempt to get higher ratings? And are higher ratings that bad?

Boyce: We’re a public broadcaster. Our job is to serve the citizens of Canada. If the citizens of Canada aren’t consuming our service, I don’t think we’re doing a very good job as a public broadcaster. That’s very different though, than going out exclusively to get the largest audience possible, by putting whatever we think will go on the air to attract that audience. For me, attracting Canadians is important, because they are our constituencies. They are our clients. They are the people who we serve. How many of them are listening is only one of a whole bunch of measures that you use to measure success.

Maffin: Was money, at all, a criteria here? How does this change Radio’s Two budget? Does it save us money, or cost us money?

Steinmetz: Neither.

Boyce: We’ll be spending about the same on the service after the change as we were before. What we spend it on, that’s where the change will be.

Steinmetz: I was just going to say that one of the things that will remain the same is that we’re going to bring quality presentation to the schedule. What separates us from the commercial stations, first of all, is we’re commercial-free and that’s obvious, but the second thing is there will still be the contextualization of music across the schedule. There will still be that in-depth look at music, so regardless of genre, the quality of presentation is still something that’s really important to us.

Maffin: Since you brought up the commercial-free point, is it your position to guarantee that Radio One and Radio Two will remain commercial-free? When we’re starting to see a little bit of slippery slope with the podcasts, which are now sponsored, are there any plans, or research, or anything going in to considering adding that to the terrestrial service?

Boyce: We have no plans whatsoever to add any commercial sponsorship to our over-the-air service.

__________________________________________
REDUCTION OF CLASSICAL MUSIC

Maffin: Okay, let’s move on to, more specifically, the classical changes, which of course, have gotten most of the attention around this. I presume we’ve done polling on music tastes among Canadians. Do fewer people in Canada like listening to classical music? Is that part of this decision?

Steinmetz: Fewer than what?

Maffin: Fewer than in the past?

Steinmetz: No, it’s basically been between four and six percent of Canadians listen to classical music at some point in the year.

Maffin: So the preference hasn’t changed? It’s not like people are listening to it less as a whole, as a genre? Fair to say?

Steinmetz: No, I think it remains stable. In fact, I know in the digital space the consumption of classical music is actually quite high. The changes are not about classical music. Classical music is doing very well. It continues to do well. Our changes don’t mean the death of classical music in this country. And in fact, as I was saying, on the digital space there’s a great demand for it.

Boyce: These changes are about everything else that we want and need to be doing, rather than anything to do with whether people are listening or not listening to classical music. The reality, Tod, is that as an over-the-air service we have one music channel, and it’s what is the range of music that we need to put on that channel. The beauty, as Mark says, of the digital space is that we have way more flexibility in targeting music to niche audiences. Come September, if you’re in to classical you will be able to listen to a classical web radio station. Same for jazz, singer song writer or contemporary Canadian compositions. Part of this is the reality, all of those music genres exist on Radio Two, we just have the ability in the digital sphere to target to people’s interests a little better.

Steinmetz: Yeah, you heard it here first actually, Tod, because we haven’t announced it yet, but we do want to add a fourth station, a contemporary classical music, all one hundred percent Canadian composed art music digital streamed. We intend to launch that as a fourth one. We’re saving that announcement for a couple of weeks from now, but there, you heard it here first.

Maffin: What does “art music” mean?

Steinmetz: Good question. I guess it is composers in this country who come from the classical music tradition. It’s not electronica. It’s not contemporary new popular music. It used to be [called] serious [music].

Maffin: Will it dive in to the area that perhaps, Brave New Waves used to cover, which was further on that edge?

Steinmetz: We feel that Radio Three does a lot of that similar kind of programming. There was a show we had on the air ago called Two New Hours, and it’s that kind of contemporary music we’re talking about. We haven’t designed the playlist. We haven’t designed what it’s going to be, but it will be that genre, sort of twentieth century, twenty-first century Canadian composed music.

Maffin: Mark, how does that process work, you mentioned designing playlists and things?

Steinmetz: We’ll be putting a group of producers together to come up with what it would sound like. We create intentions of where we want to go. We set criteria. Then producers get together and they, through program development, come up with what the musical framework and what the musical world and tone is going to be. That kind of work still has to be done.

Maffin: Did I read right that we’re calling them Radio Four, Radio Five and Radio Six?

Steinmetz: Nope.

Maffin: Okay.

Boyce: At this point, we’re still figuring out how they’ll all be branded. To be honest, for the online stations we’re still figuring out exactly what the playlists will look like, and what the range of music is. At this point, we know we’re doing them. We know the broad areas that we’re going in to, but we haven’t finished the developmental work on exactly what they’ll be, Tod.

Maffin: So how many stations?

Steinmetz: We’re looking at four. Generally, one will be a jazz station, one will be a classical music station…I should call them streams actually. I think that’s a better word. One of them will be this contemporary music one that I was talking about. And then one will be feature singer song writers’ songs across genre.

Maffin: Will there be commercials on those streams?

Boyce: There certainly won’t be commercials, per se. There may be a short, ten second sponsorship message, like a podcast, but certainly no commercials.

Maffin: Are these hosted stations? Will we actually hear someone introducing and chatting, or is it essentially like Radio Three has a station on the internet, but it’s primarily just music, music, music, back-to-back, with some pre-taped host?

Boyce: It’ll be mostly a music-focused service.

Maffin: So no live hosts:?

Boyce: Again, that’s some of the details we’re working on, but the expectation is the focus is on the music.

Steinmetz: Yeah, and you’ll know it’s CBC Radio Two.

__________________________________________
DISBANDING OF THE CBC RADIO ORCHESTRA

Maffin: Let’s talk about the orchestra briefly. The only question I really have here is why close it?

Steinmetz: Why close it? Because we had to make choices. We had to make a choice about where we wanted to direct the money that we have. We thought about it for a long time and we feel that by reallocating the money to other music productions across this country, including classical music, including [orchestral] commissions…It was a very tough choice, but we felt that was a better use of the money overall.

Boyce: It’s interesting, Tod, the CBC Radio Orchestra was created seventy years ago at a time when there were no other orchestras in Canada creating Canadian classical music. Seventy years later, there are essentially, over forty orchestras across the country. The situation that led to the creation of the orchestra is very different than the situation we find ourselves in today. As Mark said, this is about getting the most bang for the buck. It’s about the most efficient use of resources, and it’s a very, very difficult decision to make. Nobody wants to see the orchestra go, but that’s the reality that we work within.

Maffin: How much money in real dollar terms was it consuming?

Steinmetz: Can’t go there. I think in media it’s between five hundred thousand and a million dollars.

Maffin: And do you dispute the figures the media have come up with?

Steinmetz: No, I don’t, but budgets change year to year. What I can tell you though, ten years ago the Radio Orchestra did more than it did today. As years go by, it’s hard to sustain, and to keep cutting back the season, keep cutting back the concerts became not an option.

Maffin: Just to play devil’s advocate and be fair, the decision to cut back concerts and you mentioned slowly reducing, that’s not something that just happens by osmosis. There’s a decision at the CBC to reduce the level.

Steinmetz: Yeah, that’s right. We made a decision.

Boyce: But it’s not a cost cutting move, Tod. It’s about using the limited resources we have in the way that will create the most impact across the country. That’s the bottom line.

Maffin: Okay, and that makes sense. The details on that I’d love to get a little more sense of. Does this mean we’re going to become a grant giving organization, or we’ll just record more concerts, or are we going to commission specific pieces? Where will that money, specifically [Sound Cuts Out].

Steinmetz: We’re not going to be a grant giving organization, but we are going to be upping what we call the commissions budget here for orchestral commissions. That’s for sure to make up for the decision that we made about the orchestra. Then we’re going to be reallocating to music productions, recording concerts, more concerts than we had before. That’s the goal.

__________________________________________
SUMMARY

Maffin: Anything that I’ve missed in this quick interview that you want to add?

Boyce: I’m just really excited about what we’re launching in September. For the first time there is going to be a truly Canadian music service that reflects the music that’s being made across Canada to Canadians. To be honest, Tod, I’m really excited. I think it’s an amazing opportunity for Canadians to get something that they’ve never had access to before. I can’t understate the impact I think this is going to have for Canadian musicians and for Canadian audiences.

Maffin: Fantastic. How can people continue to add their thoughts in to this dialogue?

Boyce: If people are looking for more information about what we’re doing, there’s information on the Radio Two website, CBC dot C-A slash Radio Two. There’s a little section that you can look at, which talks about the new Radio Two, what we’re doing, what our plans are. We’ll be updating that as we head towards the launch in September.

Maffin: There’s always, of course, commenting on the CBC blog at Inside the CBC dot com, and CBC dot C-A slash contact is a web form there where people can send their opinions in to the CBC, and those emails do get read. We actually have a department. I don’t know how many people it is, a dozen I think, or more, who read those responses, collate them, put them in front of senior managers, as well, so those messages do get through.

Steinmetz: Oh yeah. We see them all.

Maffin: Just a quick housekeeping note. Some people may wonder why Jennifer McGuire is not on this call. Jennifer, of course, was quoted in the media for a lot of these things. That’s because at the time, she was largely responsible for communicating this. She has now moved on to another role inside CBC News. Mark Steinmetz, Director of Music for CBC Radio. Chris Boyce, Director of Programming. Thank you so much for your time today.

Steinmetz: Welcome.

Boyce: Thanks, Tod.

The protests will demand a rethinking or reversal of planned changes to CBC Radio Two, which have included a reduction in the amount of classical music programming to make way for music of a variety of genres.

The CBC says the changes are necessary to reflect Canadians’ changing music tastes, and that the CBC’s mandate is to give airtime to underplayed Canadian artists.

Somebody at the CBC apparently has leaked the CBC’s “talking points” around changes to Radio Two to 31-year-old Saskatchewan resident Peter McGillivray. He posted it in a Facebook group formed to protest the changes.

Among the points:

Claim: Live performance broadcasts of classical music have been significantly cut back.
Fact: Last fall Radio 2 introduced a new, weekly four-hour classical performance show called Sunday Afternoon in Concert – New nightly program The Signal (10pm – 1pm) regularly airs contemporary classical performances from across the country.

Claim: Degradation of Good Music
Fact: Let’s not confuse quality of music with style of music: CBC is committed to introducing Canadians to quality Canadian Music. it’s a key value that drives all decision-making; We’re broadening the genres we play in order to better meet our mandate of representing all regions and the broad range of music performed by Canadians.

Claim: Focus on commercially lucrative music
Fact: – In fact, we’re doing the exact opposite: Commercial radio only plays .8% of the Canadian music produced in any given year; We’re going to go deeper exposing a lot more recorded Canadian talent that deserves to be heard; As a public broadcaster Radio2 doesn’t, has never and has no plans to run advertising on air.

Claim: CBC’s abandoning mandate by moving away from Classical Music.
Fact: Untrue. CBC’s mandate is to reflect the regions, the people and the music of this country: By broadening the range of music we play we will do a much better job of meeting our mandate.

Claim: Competing with private radio for pop music crowd
Fact: Not true: Private radio plays select few, in focused genre, in regular rotation; Radio 2 morning and drive programs wil play more emerging Candian talent in genres ranging fro blues to jazz to folk to roots and more; in between, five hours per day, we will continue to feature classical music.

You can’t say he’s can’t spot a marketing opportunity when he sees one.

Citytv founder Moses Znaimer has taken advantage of public displeasure over the coming changes for CBC Radio Two and issued a news release promoting his two Toronto classical radio stations.

Titled “Attention CBC Radio 2 classical music listeners!,” the release begins: “Keep calm and carry on – there is an all-classical alternative [and CBC can no longer] claim there is no other source for classical music in English Canada.”

Among the new initiatives he plans to roll out: “The Classical Corps,” a roving team of mobile young reporters who will cover cultural events. Oh, and a classical-music game show just for fun

Media in Canada described the move as a “take-that blow to CBC that smacks of a wannabe duelist slapping an enemy with a glove.” Znaimer bought the stations last year and relaunched them in September

Justin Beach from the great PublicBroadcasting.ca web site has done a bit of detective work and discovered that some of the most prolific protesters inside CBC groups may not, in fact, exist

On Friday morning, a similar group is planning to protest at Maison Radio-Canada, the CBC Montreal building.

“The CBC has been taken over by a group of people dedicated to removing nearly all Classical Music,” the Vancouver group’s description reads. “They feel it is old fashioned and irrelevant to the ‘new demographic’ that they wish to attract. We feel this is misguided at best, suicidal at worst.”

Another group has been started to launch an email campaign campaign.

UPDATE: It is reported that the Music School at UBC is asking faculty to cancel classes and go with their students to the demonstration.

Well, there’s certainly been considerable apprehension about what we have in the works for CBC Radio 2. If one was to believe everything written by columnists, bloggers and in letters to the editor, you’d think our national network was killing off classical music and replacing it with pap.

Well, fear not. Classical music will remain alive and well on Radio 2.  However, we also are going to open our airwaves for lovers of other high-quality Canadian music that, scandalously, is largely ignored by private commercial radio.  And not a moment too soon.

People love classical music, yes.  But our listeners, as well as the broader public and musicians across the country, tell us that they also love other kinds of music too, as long as it’s high quality.  They want to hear music that represents the diversity of genres in their country, its people and its regions.  They want a programming that’s relevant to them.

Just consider this: Of the approximately 30,000 pieces of music released each year in Canada, only about 240 receive regular airplay on Canadian radio stations.  We intend to take advantage of this vast body of Canadian music that is otherwise ignored and make the best of it available to our listeners in an intelligent, creative and engaging way.

This, in fact, is the embodiment of our mandate.

Classical music will remain the dominant genre on Radio 2. (In September, we’ll introduce a daily five-hour classical program to be heard weekdays, along with our four-hour classical performance show on Sunday afternoons, and the venerable Saturday Afternoon at the Opera.  We’re working on alternative, high-impact approaches to showcasing emerging classical performers, and were going to continue commissioning new music across the country and providing a showcase for new works.)

But the important point (and the one we’ve been taking the heat on) is that we also are introducing other kinds of music into the classical mix: jazz, contemporary singer/songwriters, roots, world and folk. Much of this will be found in our new morning and afternoon drive programs.  Contrary to the naysayers, none of with will be pap; none of it will be schlock and, most assuredly, none of it will be dumbed down.  By September, we will have increased our overall Canadian content by approximately 20 percent.

Let’s not confuse quality of music with style of music.  CBC is committed to introducing Canadian to quality Canadian music. This is the key value the derives our decision-making.  We’re going to go deeper and exposed a tremendous amount of Canadian talent that deserves to be heard.

The orchestra is the last radio orchestra in North America. The CBC says the decision simply came down to finances and that it couldn’t afford to maintain the orchestra. “Basically the orchestra was currently doing like eight concerts a year and for the money that we’re spending, we can’t afford to do that to get just eight concerts a year,”CBC official Jeff Keay told the Globe and Mail. He wouldn’t disclose the orchestra’s annual costs, but said it was under $1-million.

Keay also said the decision has nothing to do with the shift from classical music on CBC Radio 2.

The CBC Radio Orchestra was formed in 1938. Today, it has about 45 musicians, including regular and occasional players. The Globe’s Marsha Lederman, herself recently a former CBC Radio reporter, reported that some musicians were in tears over the news.

Ian Morrison, head of the “Friends of Canadian Broadcasting” lobby group says he believes the decision came because CBC Radio has now fallen under the jurisdiction of television executive (and now head of all CBC English media) Richard Stursberg. “Until now, somebody — I would assume [former CBC Radio vice-president] Jane Chalmers and her predecessors have somehow protected this special jewel in Vancouver … and now it too has been zapped.”

This is more bad news for the CBC Vancouver plant, which, as reported here last week, is losing a number of CBC Radio programs.

—- OPINION —–

My thoughts: First, I’m in the camp of people (and there are many) who actually support the expansion of CBC Radio Two to include different genres of music. While I enjoy classical music, I have never thought it was a wise use of the public airwaves to dedicate an entire radio network to just one type of music.

There are plenty of people who agree, but, as with anything, it’s those who are opposed to something who have the incentive to be vocal.

That said, though, the CBC does itself a huge disservice by falling back on the “We just don’t have the money,” rationale.

Anyone who has been in business understands that you always have the money if it’s a priority. What the CBC really means is this: “We have the money, but we have chosen to make this decision.”

Instead, we seem to haul out this “But we’re broke” argument as the buffer for whenever a tough decision has to be made. CBC Television didn’t like Intelligence? Or Chris Haddock? Then say so. Don’t say we didn’t have the money for promotion. We have the money to promote whatever we want (after all, there are plenty of promos and advertising for Q and The Hour), we have just chosen to spend our money elsewhere.

Tough decisions need to be made. The demographics of Canada just don’t support an all-classical station any more. But if we’re going to make a hard decision like dropping the orchestra, we should be forthright with our rationale, and not claim it’s because we don’t have the money for it. We do. We have just chosen to spend it elsewhere. There’s no shame in that.

As part of that change, Sound Advice host Rick Phillips will be leaving the CBC, after 30 years with us. His last day will be March 29.

Rick Phillips began his career as a freelance music program producer at CBC Montreal in the late 1970s. That first gig led to subsequent assignments in Edmonton, Calgary and finally Toronto with such programs as RSVP, A Little Night Music, Stereo Morning and Arts National. As the area executive producer in Toronto, Phillips was intimately involved in the planning and design of the Canadian Broadcasting Centre, including Glenn Gould Studio. Since 1994, he has been the host and producer of the popular Sound Advice.

Phillips plans to become more involved in teaching, writing, webcasts and hosting tours in the growing field of adult and continuing education.

The new weekday shows are:

• Mornings (6-10): Less classical, more light contemporary like Diana Krall and Joni Mitchell. About half of the music will be Canadian. No decision yet on who the host will be.
• Mid-day (10-3): Entirely classical, both recorded and live music. About 40% Canadian content.
• Drive time (3-6): No classical — instead, a wide variety of genres from world music to blues to contemporary. The show will spend more time on emerging artists and recently released songs.

In addition to the all-classical time block from 10am to 3pm, CBC will launch three new Internet-only radio stations — classical, jazz, and singer-songwriter.

CBC’s head of radio, Jennifer McGuire, reports that ratings haven’t dropped as much as was forecasted with the previous schedule change, indicating that while some people (perhaps skewing older) leave the station, new listeners join in.

So what do you think? Are we making the right decision here with these three shows?