There has been lots of talk recently about the forthcoming changes to CBC Radio 2, the dismantling of the CBC Radio Orchestra, and more.
So last week, I sat down (via phone) with Chris Boyce, CBC Radio’s director of programming, and Mark Steinmetz, director of music, to get some more details and address some of the concerns raised.
The interview text is below and the audio of the interview is coming soon.
Please note: There are some crappy edits in the audio — all were from my end (coughing, taking a phone call, and editing out my mangling of questions and stumbling over words <grin>). At no time has Chris, Mark, or anyone at the CBC asked for anything to be taken out.
Maffin: There’s been lots of chat these days on the blog, and in the media, and inside the CBC around the changes to CBC Radio Two, specifically the reduction of classical music being played, the addition of a streaming classical music station online and closing the closing the CBC Radio orchestra. It’s been very contentious, and I’ve got a couple people with me from the CBC who will hopefully shed some light and maybe explain some of this. One is Mark Steinmetz. Hi Mark.
Steinmetz: Hi.
Maffin: Briefly, what do you do?
Steinmetz: I’m the Director of Radio Music.
Maffin: And what’s your background?
Steinmetz: I’ve been at CBC for over fifteen years. Was a producer, did disc shows, recorded concerts, recorded cd’s, and went to music school, and that’s it.
Maffin: Chris Boyce is the newly minted Director of Programming. Hi Chris.
Boyce: Hi Tod.
Maffin: You came through the Director of Program Development, and then you had some time at DNTO. Where have you been, briefly, at the CBC?
Boyce: You’re right. Before I got in to management, I was Executive Producer at DNTO and the Content Factory, producing a wide range of content for CBC Radio. And television. Most recently, I was Director of Program Development where I worked developing a wide range of programming, from current affairs, to cultural programming, to music. I just started officially a few weeks ago as Director of Programming.
Maffin: Just by way of disclosure, you used to be my boss when I worked at DNTO. I believe I still owe you five bucks.
Boyce: You were an exemplary employee.
Maffin: That’s so not true.
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THE OVERALL ENVIRONMENT
Maffin: Before we get to the topics at hand and the controversial aspects, I want to ask a couple of questions on the overall environment. Maybe Chris, you might be best to answer this. How has the way that we listen to radio changed in the last five to ten years? Are we listening more or less? Do we listen in different places than we used to?
Boyce: If you look at the overall radio environment in Canada, people are listening to slightly less over-the-air radio. Where it’s most predominant is in the under thirty-five demographic. Thirty-five plus people have lost about an hour of listening a week, still in the twenty hour a week range. The drop off is most noticed when you’re under thirty-five, and incredibly noticeable in the under eighteen demographic.
Maffin: It’s sort of an obvious answer, I suppose, but I guess those people are turning to podcasts and satellite radio. Where are we losing them to?
Boyce: That’s the million dollar question, Tod. I think it’s safe to say that people are finding any number of places, whether it be satellite radio or podcast. Everybody now seems to own an iPod and essentially programs their own music, so in the digital sphere, it’s not just other programmed radio services. It’s people essentially creating their own programming as the technology has enabled them to essentially replicate the experience of listening to a radio station but programming it themselves.
Maffin: I have to say, since podcasting came online a couple years ago, I listen to almost no radio live off the radio now. I subscribe to CBC podcast, NPR, ABC and stuff like that every day. It really changed my listening anyway.
Steinmetz: There’s another fact that we just found out. It’s between, I think, sixteen and twenty-five percent of listeners of traditional radio are actually listening off of their computers, so they’re not even listening to radios, like radio units. They’re listening through their computers. That’s across North America, so that’s interesting, as well.
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CHANGES TO CBC RADIO 2
Maffin: I want to get to that as well, when we talk about changes to the classical music, because I know that one of the things we’re going to be adding is an online radio station. But let’s start more widely with the changes to Radio Two overall. I was looking through the blog comments, and of course, we’ve had plenty. There was a fellow named Alan Shearn, of course, you never really who’s name it really is, so a person who calls himself Alan Shearn reminded people in there, there’s an old saying that says if it’s not broke, don’t fix it. CBC’s certainly changing. I don’t know whether we’re fixing, maybe we are. Does that mean Radio Two is broken?
Steinmetz: No. Radio Two, it’s a quality service. I think there are two things that we’ve realized over the past few years. One is that we’re not adhering to the overall mandate. That is that the Radio Two public space reflects the broad range of music making in this country. We don’t feel that we’re living up to our mandate, and the second reason is we described as a sustainable audience. We’ve got a relatively good audience, but fifty percent of the audience is over sixty-five. We appreciate that audience. We want to keep that audience, but the fact of the matter is the thirty-five to sixty year olds are not coming in behind them. Our audience, over the last twenty years, has grown twenty times faster than the Canadian population. Everyone thinks that the boomers are coming and they’re going to discover classical music, but the truth is that thirty-five to sixty group are not coming to our service. Over the last bunch of years, we’ve been asking ourselves why that is. And there’s many reasons for that, but those are the two reasons. We need a sustainable audience. We need to find an adult audience that will come to us and replenish us and keep us going in to the future.
Boyce: Tod, we have a great classical music service, but the reality of music in Canada today is there’s a whole list of genres of music that people listen to and that are made across Canada. Roots, world, folk, blues, jazz, contemporary music. There’s singer song writers, there’s a ton of incredible music being made in Canada today that just isn’t heard on Canadian airwaves. It’s our responsibility as Canada’s broadcaster to bring that music to Canadians wherever they live, across Canada. For us, that’s what this is about. It’s about bringing Canadian music to Canadians and it’s not really something that anyone else is doing in Canada right now.
Maffin: I wonder if we sometimes end up accidentally shooting ourselves in the foot though. Sometimes we’ll give examples of artists that would be played. I remember when Freestyle was about to launch here in Vancouver. Somebody, somewhere at the CBC mentioned, probably in passing, that among the many Canadian artists they’ll be playing we’ll see some lighter fare. There occasionally be Madonna. Of course the media reported, CBC Radio goes pop radio. I kind of fear we may have done the same thing by mentioning Celine Deon and Joni Mitchell as examples, so let’s set the record straight. When people tune in to the new CBC Radio Two in the fall, what will they hear? Will it be an easy listening station?
Steinmetz: No, it won’t be an easy listening station. It’ll be a station that brings quality music across genres to Canadians. We’ll not be focusing in on the top ten hits of this country, the commercial stations do so at presenting to Canadians. There are thousands of pieces of music across genres, including classical music, made in this country that are not heard. Quality music, across genres. We will be reflecting that music. You’re right about you mention one or two artists, and I think the two artists that were mentioned in passing long ago were Serena Ryder and Joni Michell, and all the sudden that’s what CBC Radio Two’s going to become. I don’t know where Celine Deon came from, but anyway. The fact of the matter is, will there be Joni Mitchell on the service? Yes, there will be some Joni Mitchell on the service, but it’s not going to be exclusively a service that is going to play music just like Joni Mitchell. I guess that’s the key. Whenever you bring up an artists name, then that’s what happens. Anyway, quality music across genres.
Boyce: The bottom line, Tod, is tens of thousands of cuts of music are made every year in Canada. A few hundred of them ever get heard with any regularity on commercial radio, so there is a really deep catalog of great Canadian music that nobody gets to hear. We’re going to put that on the radio.
Steinmetz: That’s right, and the number is often cited as thirty thousand and acknowledged that there are thousands that aren’t very good. And we will avoid those not very good ones, but there are thousands that are excellent and quality recordings that are heard nowhere else, and we will reflect those recordings.
Boyce: And we’re excited because it’s a radio service that doesn’t exist anywhere else in Canada right now.
Maffin: As an aside, I actually have a list of music I think is really bad. Can I just email that to you and maybe we can make some sort of arrangement?
Steinmetz: Sure.
Boyce: A “do not play” list.
Steinmetz: I get lots of those lists, Tod.
Maffin: It kind of raises in a way, I wonder how diligent we would have to be to ensure that we don’t compete in a way. There’s a commenter on the blog, named Dave, who wrote on April first. This is his comment, the new CBC Radio Two will be more like pop stations than it was before, and I think you’ve addressed that, but he goes on to say, it may not occupy exactly the same terrain as a pop station, but it certainly may appeal more to pop listeners, which I think might be true. Therefore, regardless of whether we attempt to compete with the pop stations, we kind of are in a way competing with them, so will we be paying close attention to make sure we don’t match those, or is that not really in our radar?
Boyce: We know what the service is that we want to make. We know what the music is that we think Canadians want to hear, that they aren’t hearing now. We’re going to put it on the air. If that’s something that’s appealing to people who are presently listening to another radio station, that’s great, but for us, this is about what it is to be a public broadcaster in Canada in the year two thousand and eight.
Maffin: To be fair, the numbers on Radio Two are not that great. I think, just over three percent of Canadians, who listen to the radio, tune in to Radio Two.
Steinmetz: That’s right.
Maffin: So how do we defend against charges that these changes are just an attempt to get higher ratings? And are higher ratings that bad?
Boyce: We’re a public broadcaster. Our job is to serve the citizens of Canada. If the citizens of Canada aren’t consuming our service, I don’t think we’re doing a very good job as a public broadcaster. That’s very different though, than going out exclusively to get the largest audience possible, by putting whatever we think will go on the air to attract that audience. For me, attracting Canadians is important, because they are our constituencies. They are our clients. They are the people who we serve. How many of them are listening is only one of a whole bunch of measures that you use to measure success.
Maffin: Was money, at all, a criteria here? How does this change Radio’s Two budget? Does it save us money, or cost us money?
Steinmetz: Neither.
Boyce: We’ll be spending about the same on the service after the change as we were before. What we spend it on, that’s where the change will be.
Steinmetz: I was just going to say that one of the things that will remain the same is that we’re going to bring quality presentation to the schedule. What separates us from the commercial stations, first of all, is we’re commercial-free and that’s obvious, but the second thing is there will still be the contextualization of music across the schedule. There will still be that in-depth look at music, so regardless of genre, the quality of presentation is still something that’s really important to us.
Maffin: Since you brought up the commercial-free point, is it your position to guarantee that Radio One and Radio Two will remain commercial-free? When we’re starting to see a little bit of slippery slope with the podcasts, which are now sponsored, are there any plans, or research, or anything going in to considering adding that to the terrestrial service?
Boyce: We have no plans whatsoever to add any commercial sponsorship to our over-the-air service.
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REDUCTION OF CLASSICAL MUSIC
Maffin: Okay, let’s move on to, more specifically, the classical changes, which of course, have gotten most of the attention around this. I presume we’ve done polling on music tastes among Canadians. Do fewer people in Canada like listening to classical music? Is that part of this decision?
Steinmetz: Fewer than what?
Maffin: Fewer than in the past?
Steinmetz: No, it’s basically been between four and six percent of Canadians listen to classical music at some point in the year.
Maffin: So the preference hasn’t changed? It’s not like people are listening to it less as a whole, as a genre? Fair to say?
Steinmetz: No, I think it remains stable. In fact, I know in the digital space the consumption of classical music is actually quite high. The changes are not about classical music. Classical music is doing very well. It continues to do well. Our changes don’t mean the death of classical music in this country. And in fact, as I was saying, on the digital space there’s a great demand for it.
Boyce: These changes are about everything else that we want and need to be doing, rather than anything to do with whether people are listening or not listening to classical music. The reality, Tod, is that as an over-the-air service we have one music channel, and it’s what is the range of music that we need to put on that channel. The beauty, as Mark says, of the digital space is that we have way more flexibility in targeting music to niche audiences. Come September, if you’re in to classical you will be able to listen to a classical web radio station. Same for jazz, singer song writer or contemporary Canadian compositions. Part of this is the reality, all of those music genres exist on Radio Two, we just have the ability in the digital sphere to target to people’s interests a little better.
Steinmetz: Yeah, you heard it here first actually, Tod, because we haven’t announced it yet, but we do want to add a fourth station, a contemporary classical music, all one hundred percent Canadian composed art music digital streamed. We intend to launch that as a fourth one. We’re saving that announcement for a couple of weeks from now, but there, you heard it here first.
Maffin: What does “art music” mean?
Steinmetz: Good question. I guess it is composers in this country who come from the classical music tradition. It’s not electronica. It’s not contemporary new popular music. It used to be [called] serious [music].
Maffin: Will it dive in to the area that perhaps, Brave New Waves used to cover, which was further on that edge?
Steinmetz: We feel that Radio Three does a lot of that similar kind of programming. There was a show we had on the air ago called Two New Hours, and it’s that kind of contemporary music we’re talking about. We haven’t designed the playlist. We haven’t designed what it’s going to be, but it will be that genre, sort of twentieth century, twenty-first century Canadian composed music.
Maffin: Mark, how does that process work, you mentioned designing playlists and things?
Steinmetz: We’ll be putting a group of producers together to come up with what it would sound like. We create intentions of where we want to go. We set criteria. Then producers get together and they, through program development, come up with what the musical framework and what the musical world and tone is going to be. That kind of work still has to be done.
Maffin: Did I read right that we’re calling them Radio Four, Radio Five and Radio Six?
Steinmetz: Nope.
Maffin: Okay.
Boyce: At this point, we’re still figuring out how they’ll all be branded. To be honest, for the online stations we’re still figuring out exactly what the playlists will look like, and what the range of music is. At this point, we know we’re doing them. We know the broad areas that we’re going in to, but we haven’t finished the developmental work on exactly what they’ll be, Tod.
Maffin: So how many stations?
Steinmetz: We’re looking at four. Generally, one will be a jazz station, one will be a classical music station…I should call them streams actually. I think that’s a better word. One of them will be this contemporary music one that I was talking about. And then one will be feature singer song writers’ songs across genre.
Maffin: Will there be commercials on those streams?
Boyce: There certainly won’t be commercials, per se. There may be a short, ten second sponsorship message, like a podcast, but certainly no commercials.
Maffin: Are these hosted stations? Will we actually hear someone introducing and chatting, or is it essentially like Radio Three has a station on the internet, but it’s primarily just music, music, music, back-to-back, with some pre-taped host?
Boyce: It’ll be mostly a music-focused service.
Maffin: So no live hosts:?
Boyce: Again, that’s some of the details we’re working on, but the expectation is the focus is on the music.
Steinmetz: Yeah, and you’ll know it’s CBC Radio Two.
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DISBANDING OF THE CBC RADIO ORCHESTRA
Maffin: Let’s talk about the orchestra briefly. The only question I really have here is why close it?
Steinmetz: Why close it? Because we had to make choices. We had to make a choice about where we wanted to direct the money that we have. We thought about it for a long time and we feel that by reallocating the money to other music productions across this country, including classical music, including [orchestral] commissions…It was a very tough choice, but we felt that was a better use of the money overall.
Boyce: It’s interesting, Tod, the CBC Radio Orchestra was created seventy years ago at a time when there were no other orchestras in Canada creating Canadian classical music. Seventy years later, there are essentially, over forty orchestras across the country. The situation that led to the creation of the orchestra is very different than the situation we find ourselves in today. As Mark said, this is about getting the most bang for the buck. It’s about the most efficient use of resources, and it’s a very, very difficult decision to make. Nobody wants to see the orchestra go, but that’s the reality that we work within.
Maffin: How much money in real dollar terms was it consuming?
Steinmetz: Can’t go there. I think in media it’s between five hundred thousand and a million dollars.
Maffin: And do you dispute the figures the media have come up with?
Steinmetz: No, I don’t, but budgets change year to year. What I can tell you though, ten years ago the Radio Orchestra did more than it did today. As years go by, it’s hard to sustain, and to keep cutting back the season, keep cutting back the concerts became not an option.
Maffin: Just to play devil’s advocate and be fair, the decision to cut back concerts and you mentioned slowly reducing, that’s not something that just happens by osmosis. There’s a decision at the CBC to reduce the level.
Steinmetz: Yeah, that’s right. We made a decision.
Boyce: But it’s not a cost cutting move, Tod. It’s about using the limited resources we have in the way that will create the most impact across the country. That’s the bottom line.
Maffin: Okay, and that makes sense. The details on that I’d love to get a little more sense of. Does this mean we’re going to become a grant giving organization, or we’ll just record more concerts, or are we going to commission specific pieces? Where will that money, specifically [Sound Cuts Out].
Steinmetz: We’re not going to be a grant giving organization, but we are going to be upping what we call the commissions budget here for orchestral commissions. That’s for sure to make up for the decision that we made about the orchestra. Then we’re going to be reallocating to music productions, recording concerts, more concerts than we had before. That’s the goal.
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SUMMARY
Maffin: Anything that I’ve missed in this quick interview that you want to add?
Boyce: I’m just really excited about what we’re launching in September. For the first time there is going to be a truly Canadian music service that reflects the music that’s being made across Canada to Canadians. To be honest, Tod, I’m really excited. I think it’s an amazing opportunity for Canadians to get something that they’ve never had access to before. I can’t understate the impact I think this is going to have for Canadian musicians and for Canadian audiences.
Maffin: Fantastic. How can people continue to add their thoughts in to this dialogue?
Boyce: If people are looking for more information about what we’re doing, there’s information on the Radio Two website, CBC dot C-A slash Radio Two. There’s a little section that you can look at, which talks about the new Radio Two, what we’re doing, what our plans are. We’ll be updating that as we head towards the launch in September.
Maffin: There’s always, of course, commenting on the CBC blog at Inside the CBC dot com, and CBC dot C-A slash contact is a web form there where people can send their opinions in to the CBC, and those emails do get read. We actually have a department. I don’t know how many people it is, a dozen I think, or more, who read those responses, collate them, put them in front of senior managers, as well, so those messages do get through.
Steinmetz: Oh yeah. We see them all.
Maffin: Just a quick housekeeping note. Some people may wonder why Jennifer McGuire is not on this call. Jennifer, of course, was quoted in the media for a lot of these things. That’s because at the time, she was largely responsible for communicating this. She has now moved on to another role inside CBC News. Mark Steinmetz, Director of Music for CBC Radio. Chris Boyce, Director of Programming. Thank you so much for your time today.
Steinmetz: Welcome.
Boyce: Thanks, Tod.
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You make a very poor argument for shutting down the CBCRO. The budget for the orchestra is being spent on your huge ad campaign in national papers. At one point you said the orchestra’s budget will be used for remote broadcasts of other orchestras and then you said it will be spent on commissions. What about all of the commissions performed by the CBCRO in the past few years? I suspect the budget for the CBCRO will be put into general revenue. That money will never again have the artistic impact it had when it was spent on the Radio Orchestra. Mr. Steinmetz, how can you sleep at night, knowing what havoc you have wreaked on music in this country? I hope that very soon you will be called to account for your actions.
Let me get this straight. According to the interview:
A. The ones who like classical music are the old people.
B. The ones who are turning away from radio and toward the internet are the young people.
So why is the solution to reduce the amount of classical music on the airwaves (where “young people” don’t listen), and create a new online classical station (where “old people” don’t listen)?! That’s sheer lunacy!
Statistics cited in this article:
50% of Radio Two’s audience is over 65.
Between 16 and 25 percent of people listen to CBC on their computers instead of a traditional radio.
This also means that 50% of Radio 2’s audience is UNDER 65, and that between 75 and 84% of CBC listeners listen to CBC on a traditional radio.
Tod Maffin says: “To be fair, the numbers on Radio Two are not that great. I think, just over three percent of Canadians, who listen to the radio, tune in to Radio Two.”
Well, I sure stopped listening to Radio Two after they made the changes in 2007. And they sure won’t win me back with these new changes.
I am 40 and I stream CBC Two on my computer at work. I remember when the CBC in its grand wisdom overhauled CBC One - the programming became repetitive and was pretty lightweight. The CBC lost me as a listener for years. Over the years, the programming apparently has been improving and after rediscovering Radio One during an illness last year, I am listening to Radio One in the car and at home. My concern is that once again there appears to be no plan. I am being asked to trust the CBC, despite the fact that large blocks of mish-mash programming is what is on offer.
Why not keep some of the current shows and add new ones, that way you could keep your existing audience while building a new one. From a marketing stand point of view, keeping an existing cliet is easier than finding a new one. This existing client is going to be streaming orchestral and classical music from the UK or the US. The CBC may think we are all going to just simply hang around until they get it right, but they are sadly mistaken.
I think the makeover of Radio 2 is long overdue. We need to hear music that reflects the cultural diversity of this country. That said, why do the programmers believe that CBC has to carry the burden of airing those thousands of recordings not heard on commercial radio? The can/con percentages for the daytime shows are higher than 50 percent. Why is Radio 2 setting an objective that may not be fulfilled? These two questions have not been answered to my satisfaction.
My take on it is that the focus is on Canadian works and to open up the station to all other genres - not focusing on disbanding classical music per se but to allow Canadian composers of all kinds of musical backgrounds to be heard without limiting what kind of Canadian compositions get played. I confess I am interested in the direction Radio 2 is going - if the CBC is limited in its resources then it should play the music generated by Canadians which do not have a platform elsewhere. The cultural make up of the population of this country has changed much in even the last 10 years. I am curious to see what will come of the changes.
I have only one window ledge in my house where my small radio is balanced, with a carefully placed aerial, where Radio 2 can be received. After all this work, I will definitely miss the learning and the pleasure that I hear from Radio 2. So, as I understand from the interview, if one wants to listen to classical, Radio 2 will not be the place, as that content will only be for a few hours. Accuradio??wait for the new product on the web.???..definitely takes one away from the radio. I did not really notice an answer to ‘what will Canadians hear this fall’? ‘There are thousands of pieces of music across genres, including classical music, made in this country that are not heard. Quality music, across genres. We will be reflecting that music.’ is a true politician’s answer! What will be heard?
There should be a public dialogue where Canadian composers of art music and music related to “Classical” music have the opportunity to ask questions, debate, and voice concerns.
It has not been publicly discussed to my knowledge how Mark Steinmetz’s father, Peter Steinmetz, is a lawyer specializing in the songwriting music industry who has successfully sought to increase royalties for songwriters. The CBC’s mysterious switch of focus to songwriters under his son’s leadership represents a serious conflict of interest, as he stands to benefit professionally from this change. It is reminiscent of George W Bush changing government regulations to follow his father’s interests.
The CBC is a public corporation and its changes should reflect what its listeners want. A read of the Arts Report on which these changes are based reveals false calculations and decisions based on the opinions of unnamed ‘cbc employee’s (what kind of employees? hosts? producers? secretaries? janitors? why should we take their opinions seriously if we don’t know who they are and what their musical education is?) Their inquiries into what people want involved far fewer than the 15,000 people who are protesting on facebook, many of whom are in the age group the CBC claims does not listen to classical music.
The vast number of letters they seem to be receiving indicates that they are losing the listeners they seek to attract . It does not take a business degree to realize that making yourself more like the competition in tone (as with their new little mini-sound-bite advertisements) is a poor decision - it takes away the uniqueness and individuality of the CBC. It is rarely a good business decision to alienate customers you already have - what if the ones you think you will get don’t actually switch to your side? Then you’ve lost them all.
This whole “We’re really excited” line is getting tired - it is in every form-letter email they are mailing out in response to people’s complaints (people have been sharing them on the web, so there is a degree of transparency to their corporate-toned responses that they may be unaware of). Little children get excited when they are doing things that they shouldn’t do; please don’t be so condescending as to believe that we should be excited because you are.
If you wish to spend tens of thousands of dollars on full-page newspaper advertisements when that money could have helped keep the CBC Radio Orchestra running, how about putting names in there of people supporting the changes who have actually contributed to Canadian society, rather than music industry people who stand to benefit from the changes? We might actually take it seriously then. The reason? None of them would. The level of mismanagement and propaganda is outstanding.
The CBC should be streaming music of this new variety first to test it out first. Make the songwriters theme your new streaming channel rather than taking classical music away from the people who like it, many of whom won’t have access to the internet because of their age and isolated locations.
These changes are a disaster for culture in Canada.
I’m concerned about fragmented programming, in at least two respects:
1. From what I have read regarding over-the-air programming, there will be an eclectic mix of “quality” Canadian music from a a variety of genres. The problem with this mix in an over the air broadcast is that I don’t want to hear celtic music mixed with chamber choir mixed with ska punk, regardless off how high quality some producer might deem it to be. I view radio broadcasting by genre, and by theme. Because I listen seriously, I consider broadcast radio to be appointment radio. Program in depth in a genre, and declare this in your programming schedule.
2. By shifting much of the classical genre to an internet stream, CBC is smashing and fragmenting their audience even further than they otherwise would (say, by leaving the token 10-2 daily slot for classical in the over-the-air broadcast). Moving the audience down to an internet stream is narrowcasting, the CBC will lose some of the existing audience for that genre. Further, by relying on a narrow classical genre internet stream (cheaper than over the air?) they are competing directly against the true pure classical music broadcasters, who simply duplicate their over-the-air programming on an internet stream.
Serving too many masters. Serving too many people and too many interests, means serving no-one adequately.
“Can’t go there.” Hello, it’s a public agency! The people who pay for it have a right to know all the details!
It’s obviously complete nonsense to try to reach young people through a medium that doesn’t fit into their lifestyles. The type of music planned for Radio 2 does not support in-depth anaylsis, as classical music does, so it is perfectly suited to online streaming. If classical music listeners are forced to go online, they are going to surf right past CBC’s canned playlist and seek the intelligent discussion at BBC and NPR.
I don’t think the issue here is about cutting ‘Classical’ music - I think the purpose is about broadening what kind of music is available on this channel. What is ‘Classical’ music? Right now when I turn on Radio 2 I hear mostly ‘Western European Classical’ (for lack of a better description) music. I am a first generation born Canadian - the music I hear right now and what other people are referring to I do not necessarily think of when I hear classical music. It does not mean I do not appreciate and enjoy ‘Western European Classical’ music - but I would like to hear music from my heritage, my peers, as well as what consitutes as ‘Canadian’ music and the heritages of many other Canadians. As we know and continue to boast, Canada is rich in its multi-culturalism and I think it is time that Radio 2 should also reflect that diversity and I think it is a good move that CBC is doing this - for too long are Canadian broadcasters always playing ‘foreign’ work (whether it is tv, films, or even music.) I’m sorry to say this - Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, and the like (as much as I admire and enjoy their work) are not Canadian and Canadian taxpayers should support Canadian works. I’m sure the new programs will continue to pay homage and play works we are used to hearing but I would like to give the new programming (and Canadian works!) a chance. Maybe I am treading the line here, but as someone of a ‘diverse’ Canadian background, I feel tremendously unrepresented with the current programming and I am hoping the changes will address that. This is not about getting CBC to play ‘ethnic’ programming, but I do not feel I am alone when I say that first-generation born Canadians and those that followed have forged their own heritage in Canada and have a hard time finding a media outlet that supports their sense of identity. I feel that CBC is at least opening that door and trying to serve that population which I don’t feel anyone else has attempted to do - and we must acknowledge it is a very large and sizeable population that is being considerably underserved at the moment.
I wasn’t even born in Canada yet my identity is Canadian. This country, its institutions, and its values are based on the twin foundations of English and French cultures, which are part of Western European culture. Beethoven, Chopin, Bach, and the like, are in fact part of the heritage of all Canadians.
What makes the CBC special is that it binds all Canadians together. What is the point of “representing” non-Canadian cultures? Doesn’t that just perpetuate the things that separate and ghettoize people? Look at Europe—not integrating immigrants into Western culture and values is leading to terrible tensions in pretty much every country there. If we want to continue to be a decent, peaceful country based on enlightened European values then we should be emphasizing our common heritage. It’s good to give space to music from around the world, but pride of place should go to Canada’s true heritage, and that includes Western European Classical music.
I guess one of the real problems with this ‘conversation’ is the fact that what is really going to be played on the ‘new’ programming has not been answered.
I have enjoyed listening to our Canadian contemporary composers along with Beethoven and Bach. I like to hear who are the up and coming sopranos and tenors, pianists, cellists in Canada. I enjoy learning from some of the hosts. I enjoy the opportunity for people to dedicate songs to one another from across this vast country. If I wanted Jazz, I would not be listening to Radio 2. I like having a ‘classical’ station!
Once one’s favorite restaurant no longer serves your type of food, one goes elsewhere!
I find it interesting that Mr. Steinmetz and Mr. Boyce are only now beginning to explain the rationale for the changes that have been taking place at CBC Radio Two for the past year. I applaud their attempt to explain their thinking in this interview with Mr. Maffin, even if it is only on the “inside the CBC” web site, which I suspect very few CBC Radio listeners know about.
The changes that are being made to the CBC Radio Two programming are unprecedented in the history of CBC Radio. And, to be quite frank, the execution of these changes has been a fiasco equally unprecedented in the history of any corporation, either public or private. The only new product introduction that I can think of that rivals CBC Radio’s botched attempt to change their offering to consumers is Coca-Cola’s attempt to introduce “New Coke” in the late ‘80s. Fortunately, Coca-Cola realized their blunder and reintroduced “Coke Classic” in an attempt to placate an outraged clientele. Will CBC Radio management eventually realize their mistakes and reintroduce “Radio Two Classic”. No, they won’t, because they are not dependent on their consumers for funding. Public funding means they have the luxury of toying with the programming until they drive their audience away, to Classical 96.3 FM in Toronto or to Sirius or XM satellite radio in those Canadian cities that have no commercial classical stations that are alternatives to CBC Radio Two.
There are many excellent points made by those who have left comments to this article. David’s comment that “It is rarely a good business decision to alienate customers you already have - what if the ones you think you will get don’t actually switch to your side? Then you’ve lost them all.” is especially relevant. Why is this so obvious to CBC Radio listeners, but lost on CBC Radio executives? Is it because some of the CBC Radio listeners actually work in competitive industries and understand what it takes to attract and retain customers, and how difficult it is to attract new customers? Because they have some real-world experience in running a business that must offer a product or service that their customers want, otherwise they will go out of business?
There are many points in this interview that I could comment on. However, I will only repeat a point that I made in a letter to Ms. Jennifer McGuire on June 7, 2007, and that is still relevant to the present discussion:
“I agree that the mandate of CBC Radio should be to deliver programming that is meaningful to Canadians. What, however, is programming that is “meaningful to Canadians”? Should it attempt to reflect every region, every ethnic group, every musical genre that may be performed in Canada? If you attempt this then it is my opinion that the result will be a musical melange that will be of interest to only a very few. The programming will become so fragmented and unpredictable that you will lose your audience to stations where the programming is more consistent. If you succeed in broadening the scope of the programming, only to reduce the size of your audience, have you truly succeeded in making CBC Radio more relevant to Canadians?”
I would just like to point out that Bach, Chopin & Borodin can maintain a Canadian identity within the context of Canadian performances. I would also like to point out that it would not be so “Canadian” in culture, nor identity to entirely block out classical music that is not composed, nor performed here in Canada. I would like to believe that we can still stand to learn from and share with other countries and other cultures in the way that Radio Two does now!
I, personally, enjoy the commentary, the works being played (with the exception that certain works are overplayed of course!) and will no longer follow CBC Radio Two so closely without my morning and afternoon drive home classical music shows. I am, like many others, not convinced by the empty response I’ve received from CBC and am still waiting to hear what it is exactly that they plan to use to replace Tom Allan & Jurgen Gothe!!
I am a Canadian through and through. I am getting married soon to a Canadian who immigrated here in his teens. He has also caught onto my passion and love for my country and for classical music by listening to Radio Two. He gets enough background and history on the works that the music becomes much more relevant to him. He also enjoys listening to the Mr. Allan & Mr. Gothe and Katie Malek. I think that Radio Two is in a good place and should be trying to improve itself based on the good it already has…why must they always try to throw out all the existing goodness and try to reinvent the wheel??
I’m so glad that I stumbled across this ‘interview’ (by an underling, of two honchos - now THERE is reason for trust…). For now it is finally clear to me that there is absolutely no hope in ‘fighting’ the outrage that has been–and continues to be–perpetrated with respect to Radio Two! With two people in charge whose ‘qualifications’ are so pitifully inadequate (or do I mean non-existent?) as are Steinmetz’s and Boyce’s…. (Still, curiosity eats away: could we hear a little more about Steinmetz’s “music schooling”? Or is that another topic where “he won’t go”??) But, then, perhaps I am being too demanding - after all, the former has learned to parrot the phrase “music across genres”, while the latter is able to get ever so “excited”, over and over again. (I wonder how much I [read: Canadian taxpayer] am paying them to put those ‘qualifications’ so fearlessly to work in the service of - well, let’s call it “exciting Canadian [=mantra] music across genres”?)
As for the revelation in one comment concerning Steinmetz’s Daddy - I almost hate to admit this, but the surprise even floored me (someone who has an inch-thick file of useless correspondence with the previous, unlamented CEO!). (Any further comment would get me into very deep ‘political incorrectness’, so I must, alas, skip it.)
There is really only one ‘remedy’ for all this (and, of course, for the many, many other affronts committed hourly across Mother Corpse’s various outlets): remove the whole sorry bunch from the tax-trough by ‘privatizing’ this great ‘public broadcaster’. If any of it is as good as they claim (and getting better, right??), it will survive; the rest (80%? 90? 95? any bets?) will fade into richly deserved oblivion - and good riddance!
I think many have misunderstood my comments posted here. I am not arguing to eliminate Beethoven, Bach, Chopin and the like, what I am pointing out is that my understanding based on the interview is that they are scaling back traditional programming in order to find space to INCLUDE works that are Canadian which are not played as much as CBC as a public broadcaster to promote Canadian culture is mandated to play. If we wish to argue about what is the definition of Canadian music, then what about Aboriginal music programming? Do they not have the right to be represented in the musical airplay?
Sylvia’s comments here make me feel that I am less Canadian simply because I am not of ‘French’ or ‘English’ origin. I think we can all agree that being Canadian embraces musicians and composers that come from such a wide range of backgrounds as Canadian-Chinese, Canadian-Ugandan, Canadian-Latino, Canadian-Lebanese, Canadian-Caribbean etc. etc. These musicians are brought up in Canada and currently have very few platforms to be heard. An example I give of the dilemma these musicians and composers face - let’s say a Canadian-born Chinese francophone from New Brunswick who trained at Canada’s Royal Conservatory of music and was influenced by the traditional Classical Chinese music enjoyed by the composer’s parents began to write their own compositions. These compositions will likely not get airplay of their works on a Chinese music channel because they are not ‘ethnically Chinese’ enough but because they are not composing music that fall strictly in the tradition of Baroque or other ‘traditionally’ recognized types, they are not heard on current Canadian radio broadcasters because there is ‘nowhere’ specific to place them. Yet can we agree that their ethnic background does not make them any less Canadian? We are also seeing an increase of mixed-race composers and musicians who may or may not were born here but had grown up here - what about their works? How are they defined apart than simply ‘Canadian?’ I am sure there would be those across the country who would love to hear what would be the blend all of these wonderful cultures and influences together. Doesn’t this hybrid experience typically explain what being a Canadian is, the blending of many cultures represented in the fact that we have TWO official languages and the fact that we had Deepa Mehta’s ‘Water’ competing as Canada’s entry at the Academy awards for best foreign picture where the entire film was spoken in Hindi and not in either of Canada’s official languages?
I feel the CBC is heading in the right direction by reaching out and INCLUDING these groups (not alienating them by ignoring them totally.) CBC Radio 2 should reflect Canada in its entirety. It would be beneficial and educational for all Canadians to hear programs that will include these works. Right now I am saying that the current listening experience does not allow for exploration of these kind of musical experiences.
After all, once upon a time, it was difficult to find a Thai restaurant, and now everyone is enjoying Thai and other Asian fusion-influenced restaurants and they are everywhere, even in the suburbs. Music should also be thus enjoyed as a wide smorgasboard that the Canadian population has become.
They are already losing their listening audience with the changes they have made to date. I do know that listeners close to the 49th Parallel are now tuning in to US NPR to get their classical music. The hypothetical “hipsters” that the CBC hopes to attract have their car radios tuned to commercial Top 40 stations and don’t listen to CBC on a Saturday night. Those who would like world music already have stations that serve that market. In Vancouver, there is a Chinese and Punjabi radio station which are listened to heavily by those communities. I’ve stocked up on classical CD’s for my car and have turned my dial away from CBC. SO LONG!
Katie, I’m afraid you misunderstood me. You are as Canadian as you choose to be, but Canada itself is built on a cultural heritage that cannot be denied. It is written into our constitution, institutions, and laws, as well as our arts and culture.
You bring up “Water,” a wonderful film which could not have been made in India. There were riots and their sets were destroyed by offended Hindus, so they were forced to film in Bangladesh, where there is certainly no love for Hindus. Are those the sorts of cultures we want to “represent” in Canada? “Water” really is a Canadian film because it does not kowtow to tribal loyalty but cares and speaks for the oppressed, whoever they are and whoever it might offend. If a comparable film were made criticizing some aspect of Canada, you know there would be no violence, and barely even a murmur of protest. In all likelihood the government would even fund it. That’s a culture to be truly proud of, proud enough to go without hyphens. I am Canadian, period.